7-string A6 Re-entrant Tuning ideas

[Zachary Dent]

Aloha!

I acquired a 7 String Lap steel that I had intended to play with A6 tuning, with a low A on the 7th string. (A C# E F# A C# E). However, during the restringing process it became evident that the 7th string was meant to be a thinner string due to both the thinner nut slot and the thinner bridge slot, thus it appears this guitar was meant to be tuned with a re-entrant 7th string. The previous owner had a thicker gauge string sitting up high on the nut and wedged into the bridge slot. However, there was a single .012 string wound up and stored in the case labeled “original 7th string.” The 7th string nut slot seems similar in size to the 3rd or 4th string’s nut slot.

In any case, I would like to get some advice on what I could tune that thinner 7th string to? I was thinking of doubling up the 6th string’s 3rd interval with a high c#, but maybe throwing in the 9th (B) or 11th (D) but i feel like those are getting way far away in pitch from that C# on the 6th string to be practical?

For reference, I play strictly Hawaiian music on my lap steel, ranging from early Hapa Haole songs to modern Hawaiian tunes, typically with a slack key guitar player or 2. But I’m open to adding more chromaticism to my leads and “jazzing” it up if it works out.

I’ve even theorized finding a nut and bridge from a non-re-entrant 7 string Gibson E150, or having something machined, but it seems impractical, expensive, nigh impossible, or all of the above. I do not want to irreparably modify this guitar.

Mahalo in advance for your thoughts!

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[Allan Revich]

This one is from an old Gibson catalog. Possibly what your guitar was originally tuned with.

Gibson 1930s? – c♯ B D E G♯ B E (E13)

Lots more in this thread
viewtopic.php?t=377888

[Zachary Dent]

Aloha Allan, and mahalo for your response. I have been reading that thread quite a bit lately to get an idea of the philosophy behind re-entrant tunings. The OP seems to have had a similar genesis to posting that thread.

Thank you also for your E13 tuning suggestion, it’s giving me some ideas about how to approach a re-entrant tuning for A6. I would like to stick with the A6 tuning that I’m most familiar with and am used to playing the setlists/vamps that I perform with. I’m mostly just trying to figure out something to do with that 7th string in the A6 context.

Thinking I could put a high G (diminished 7th) and get an A13 tonality similar to the tuning you suggest. As that E13 tuning is like E6 with the diminished 7th added on the 5th string. Hmm, the wheels are turning in my noggin.

[Jack Hanson]

Aloha!

I acquired a 7 String Lap steel that I had intended to play with A6 tuning, with a low A on the 7th string. (A C# E F# A C# E). However, during the restringing process it became evident that the 7th string was meant to be a thinner string due to both the thinner nut slot and the thinner bridge slot, thus it appears this guitar was meant to be tuned with a re-entrant 7th string.

My 1941 KEH (Kalamazoo Electric Hawaiian) seven-string has a bridge that's likewise machined for a re-entrant seventh string. Like Zach, I normally tune my seven-strings to A6. A low A-string will not fit into the seventh string slot, so I set it up with strings 1 - 6 tuned to the common C-6, and a re-entrant Bb in the seventh position, creating an alternative C13. I like it.

[Zachary Dent]

My 1941 KEH (Kalamazoo Electric Hawaiian) seven-string has a bridge that's likewise machined for a re-entrant seventh string. Like Zach, I normally tune my seven-strings to A6. A low A-string will not fit into the seventh string slot, so I set it up with strings 1 - 6 tuned to the common C-6, and a re-entrant Bb in the seventh position, creating an alternative C13. I like it.

Aloha Jack. Your OP from 2022 was instrumental (pun half intended) in figuring out what was going in with my guitar. I hadn’t heard of the term “re-entrant” before that (and still don’t fully understand the concept and use, both grammatically and in practice). My first thought upon observing the reality of this thinner “top”/7th string was that it’s like a 5 string ukulele, where the low G string (4th string) is doubled with the 5th string an octave higher. This seems to be what Herb Remmington had done with some of his tunings.

So far, i have it at the same pitch E as my first string, for convenience sake, but i will probably keep the first 6 strings in A6 and try a G on that re-entrant 7th string (diminished 7th) to get a kind of A13 (though, without the 13th I guess its A6/dim7 or maybe more correctly, Amaj add6 dim7; i’m not a music scientist, i just clunk the thing). I guess this is sorta what you did with your C6 primary adding the Bb.

Will report back with this experiment but still open to ideas.

Mahalo for joining in the convo!

[Jack Hanson]

So far, i have it at the same pitch E as my first string, for convenience sake, but i will probably keep the first 6 strings in A6 and try a G on that re-entrant 7th string (diminished 7th) to get a kind of A13 (though, without the 13th I guess its A6/dim7 or maybe more correctly, Amaj add6 dim7; i’m not a music scientist, i just clunk the thing). I guess this is sorta what you did with your C6 primary adding the Bb.

Exactly what I did with my C6 and the re-entrant Bb, only three half-steps lower in pitch. Try it; you may like it!

[Twayn Williams]

Thinking I could put a high G (diminished 7th) and get an A13 tonality similar to the tuning you suggest.

To be pedantic, dominant 7th, not diminished

A high G pitched above your top E string would be a good idea, but that nut slot looks pretty big for 12. It might buzz. Still, it's an easy experiment! You could also try a G pitched between the F# and A, but that'd give you a minor second which might be more trouble that it's worth...

[Zachary Dent]

To be pedantic, dominant 7th, not diminished

A high G pitched above your top E string would be a good idea, but that nut slot looks pretty big for 12. It might buzz. Still, it's an easy experiment! You could also try a G pitched between the F# and A, but that'd give you a minor second which might be more trouble that it's worth...

Aloha Twayn!

I thought interval A:G in the A major scale was a diminished 7th, But that the chord would be a dominant 7th chord (root, maj 3rd, perfect 5th and minor 7th)? Or can’t you diminish major intervals, only perfect and minor intervals? My brain swirls! I’m still figuring it all out and clunking away.

Yea, i agree that it’s big for .012, and i’m thinking of putting the G between my F# and A there(not the one above the E) with a .024w or maybe a .021. We’ll see what happens!

Here’s another thought to keep it A6:
C# E F# A C# e a (doubling the higher C# between A and e) I’m gonna need more strings to experiment! Or maybe I’ll break down and file the nut

Mahalo for your pedanticism and thoughtful observations and suggestions.

Aloha,
Xak

[Twayn Williams]

Here's a resource that might be of relevance:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_(music)

[Scott Houston]

I usually have the bottom strings of the Joaquin reentrant tuning (C6/A9) on my 7 string, low to high b C# E G A C E. Not A6, but you can use the same gauges for the top six strings. And since you had a high Bb on there for the reentrant, you can reuse that for the b too!

Brilliant tuning. 6th chord on the top five strings, move up three frets and it's the 9th chord of the same root on the bottom five. Lots of other fun things in there to explore as well, minor 6 and major 7s etc.

Cool guitar!

[Pete Martin]

My 8 string A6 tuning uses reentrant G and Bb on the bottom. Give me a full diminished chord on the bottom 4, plus dominant seventh, minor 6th, etc. I call this tuning A6HighGdiminished. I first tried it with G and Bb up a half step from normal 8 string A6, but found the voicings much more useable when I moved them up and octave.

I almost never play regular A6, though my 57 Stringmaster T8 has normal A6 on outside neck. Plus A6HighGdim on close neck and Leon's E13 in the middle.

[Zachary Dent]

Mahalo ʻoukou, thanks all for your input.

Scott, mahalo for your input. If I ever decide to try another primary tuning, I’ll keep this in mind, but that may be a ways off if so. I’m comfortable with A6 and sticking to that. But I do appreciate you sharing your tuning and the mindset behind it. I enjoy the thought experiment of trying to figure out how the idea can be adapted to A6 for myself.

Pete, high G and Bb have been on my mind for options on my re-entrant 7th string. Thanks for your thoughts and explanation of how you use this tuning as well.

I’ve exhausted my spare string stash so am waiting on an order to arrive before experimenting further. At the moment I have the 7th string tuned an octave above my 6th string’s C# so I can just play it how I like without much complications, but it mostly negates any need for a 7th string.

Also, the following thread has been helpful for me in regards to alternative A6 tunings: viewtopic.php?t=358469

Trying to work this unplanned re-entrant instrument into my playing style has been an interesting exercise. Not sure if it’s for me, but it’s been worth the try and discussion before making a decision to trade this guitar into something more practical for myself.

Mahalo nō
Xak

[Allan Revich]

Thinking “out loud”…
It might make sense to start with a reentrant A in the same octave as the A on string 3. Then you could experiment with tuning it up a semitone to Bb, and down a tone to G.

Meanwhile A6 (a C♯ E F♯ A C♯ E) would probably be safe and simple if you didn’t like either of the other two options.